If one forces oneself to preserve all the principles, non-opposition, mobility, control, encompass, and decision, one will improve one’s attitude, and by the same token improve one’s effectiveness. Because one must not lose sight of the fact that all exercises, kata, randori, uchi-komi, competition, are done to improve the practice of judo.

One of the important elements in the elaboration of judo by Jigoro Kano was the kata…

Kano had already created judo when he undertook to elaborate the kata. He borrowed forms from jujutsu, from ancient techniques, and even from some of his students, and he turned them into exercises capable of transmitting the elementary principles of judo. He first wished the kata to make it possible not to drift towards dangerous acts, or towards something other than judo. Then he realised that these forms had the appeal of an encounter without opposition.

All the kata have in common that the partners take on a conventional role?

Yes, there are two characters, Tori and Uke. Uke is the one who attacks and Tori is the one who masters the attack. That is clearly defined for all kata. Uke is always mastered by Tori, because Tori is supposed to be the better judoka. He always ends up imposing his effectiveness. But Uke’s role is very important. Uke always decides to attack Tori with sincerity. In the nage-no-kata or the go-no-sen, for example, he must want to throw Tori. And it is only when he sees that he does not succeed that he accepts Tori’s control, while maintaining his own control.

Does the status of kata remain special within judo?

Kata are not something exceptional. They are exercises like the others. They are often confined to the teaching of grading examinations, brown belts practise nage-no-kata to obtain first dan. It may be good that the exam forces one to work it more, but kata are not only themes for exams. They must be practised a lot, continuously. And they must be practised on an equal footing with the other exercises, because like them they make it possible to acquire self-control and an attitude. I consider it indispensable for the formation of a good judoka to have a good mastery of kata. A good mastery of kata means a good mastery of one’s own body, a mastery of the partner, and a mastery of one’s movement. There are many elements in kata. They must be done with sincerity. They must be well felt, well thought, well interpreted, with mind and body. It must be true.

So perhaps we could review the kata, to understand the interest of each one? The nage-no-kata, to begin with?

Nage-no-kata is translated like this, “nage” is “throwing”, “no” is “of”, and “kata” is “forms”. Forms of throwing. It is therefore the demonstration of different kinds of throws. But it is at the same time the study of falls. One must keep in mind that it is the kata of throws and falls.

There are five series of throws in the nage-no-kata…

In the first series of movements, arm movements are demonstrated, in the second hip movements, then arm-shoulder, then leg, front sutemi and side sutemi. But these French labels are mistaken. One speaks of shoulders, of arms, of hands, in reality that is not very important, it is always the whole body that throws. Understanding that movements are done with the help of this or that part of the body can help, but it is not the essential.

The nage-no-kata is particular in that the movements are broken down into three moments.

The displacement with its three steps corresponds to the different phases of a throw. In each judo throw there are three phases. These phases were defined by Mr Kano, the phase of preparation, the phase of control, and the phase of throwing. This exists in all movements. Mr Kano arranged them in three moments in the nage-no-kata so that one could understand them, but in the reality of a movement they are realised in a single moment. The sense of nage is also right away. To throw is right away.

How do the actions of Tori and Uke follow one another through these three phases?

Tori comes to place himself in front of Uke, Uke takes hold of Tori’s judogi to make an attack, he launches the first action to throw him. He never attacks by pushing. If one wants to throw someone one must draw them towards oneself, not push. At the moment when Uke comes to grip his judogi, Tori at the same time encompasses and sets himself in motion. Nage-no-kata is the possibility of throwing from the very moment of Uke’s kumikata. It has to be like that, in the encompass the throw is already there. Uke is carried along by Tori. To compensate for his imbalance, he controls. That is to say he keeps his centre of gravity as long as possible. But since Tori continues his encompass and his control, Uke becomes more and more unbalanced, until at the end he has no other solution than to fall. For him it is the only way to continue his control, to accept the form transmitted by Tori, while keeping for himself a possibility of action.

How does one use the body for that?

It is the body that creates mobility, it is thought with the hara. In the practice of kata, the work of the body prevails, the arms are only instruments that transmit the action, they are not motors. They only grip the other to transmit the actions of the body.

How does one grip the partner?

The best grip is the one that hinders neither oneself nor the other. The fundamental kumikata is the right hand roughly at shoulder height on the lapel, the left hand a little above the elbow. Facing the partner, arms relaxed, shoulders dropping, and the abdomen slightly toned.

What is the action of the hands?

They hold the judogi firmly, without stiffness. They take the sleeve and lapel in a circular movement towards oneself, palms turned down.

What attitude should one adopt with the arms?

If the arms are stiff, one cannot use the body. The arms must remain fluid, flexible, and must follow and accept the slightest movements of the body.

What should one do with the feet?

One must not think feet, one must think body. We have seen that in the nage-no-kata there are three steps. One is set in motion first by thought and the hara, and then the feet follow. It is not the feet that give the possibility of moving, it is the mobility of the body that obliges the feet to move.

You often insist on speed of execution?

If one goes too fast in executing a kata, one misses half the elements. All elements must be complete within the kata exercise. Otherwise one compensates for what is missing with strength and brutality, which represents a danger for one’s partner.

Nage-no-kata is often associated with katame-no-kata?

Katame-no-kata is the kata of controls. It is a kata that takes place on the ground. It was conceived by Mr Kano in connection with nage-no-kata under the name randori-no-kata. In that exercise, at the end of nage-no-kata, the partners find themselves facing each other and begin katame-no-kata directly, without bowing again.

Katame-no-kata is composed of three series of techniques?

Three series. A first one that is improperly called a series of immobilisations. A second which is a series of joint locks, and a third which is a series of strangles. But all three series work on control.

Why is it not correct to speak of immobilisation?

To immobilise is to prevent doing. One must not confuse control with that. Control is not opposing the actions of the other, it is compensating for them to develop one’s own actions. Ground control is exactly the same thing as standing control. It is always knowing, feeling, recognising what position, what relationship one has with the partner. Constantly knowing what the partner can do, towards what position they are going, and being able to compensate.

More precisely, how is control applied in this kata?

In the same way as standing. It is not the work of arms nor of strength. It is in fact the centre of gravity that one places in one way or another, in mobility, depending on Uke’s attempts to escape. The only difference is that katame-no-kata takes place on a horizontal plane, whereas nage-no-kata takes place on a vertical plane. Ground control is not done with muscular contraction, with a strong holding of hands and arms. The hands serve to take supports on the partner with a movement towards one’s own abdomen, and the abdomen pushes towards the ground.

One often hears, about katame-no-kata, that it is not as interesting as others?

It is less complete, less finished than nage-no-kata. Perhaps because Kano’s school favoured standing work. Kano did not deepen katame-no-kata very much, nor ground work in general, because his idea was first standing. Perhaps also katame-no-kata seems less complete because it has been less practised, less deepened than nage-no-kata.

Nevertheless, you made the effort to develop ground work?

I discovered what ground control was thanks to Mr Hirano. He had an exceptional control, a way of controlling without spending energy. I worked a lot with him and I learned a lot. Thanks to the controls and strangles he applied on me, I worked ways of escaping while using as little effort as possible. I looked for the encompasses and the possibilities. From there I began to elaborate the techniques of ground escapes. Hirano encouraged me in that direction.

How do ground escape and control fit together?

Getting out from under a partner is not escaping in order to get rid of them, it is controlling. And keeping that control throughout the escape in order to be able to continue, to hold the partner in turn, to lock them, to strangle them. That is why, at the end of a ground escape, one must not arrive sitting or in any random position. One must arrive on the knees and ready to continue.

As for locks and strangles, it is harder for me to see mobility in them, to see the same control as in the escapes…

Locks, strangles, immobilisations, it is control. In a strangle you see something fixed and static, but it is not static. Again it is the same as in standing work. These are continuous actions that do not seek a definitive blockage. One must think of the strangle, the lock, as actions that link with other actions. You go with your body, you carry, and you continue.

Were these elements told to you and taught to you in that way?

No. But when one researches one must interpret too, and know what one wants to do. One must always take what seems useful, without leaving the way, always remaining within the way. I focused a lot of my work on ground escapes because from the moment one is capable of fighting on the ground, standing practice becomes much more open and freer. One can work more freely when one is not afraid of being taken to the ground. At the same time, ground escapes are educational for the body, similar to standing throws. The use of one’s body to escape control is equivalent to the use of the body when one executes a throw. It is as educational as throwing.

Let us take up go-no-sen…

Go-no-sen is not a kata by Kano. It is the exercise of counters, it is essentially an exercise of anticipation. Go-no-sen is the idea of anticipating the other’s action. In all kata one finds a part of go-no-sen. It is what I was saying about nage-no-kata, this idea that Tori encompasses, and that it is this encompass that causes the setting in motion, the imbalance, and the mobility of Uke.

Except that in go-no-sen it is shorter?

Yes. And it is specific. One must take the other’s action from the very start. From kumikata, one must take the other’s thought. When they start to think, you must take that in order to use it. You must adapt your reflex to the other’s intention.

In essence it is very close to what happens in randori?

Yes, but it is another exercise. And it is good to have created this exercise of counters, because it makes them interesting. It makes them into work. Otherwise one can misunderstand counters. They are often understood as waiting for the other to do something in order to counter them. That is a mistake, it is opposition. One is not there to wait, but to profit from an opportunity. All the work of go-no-sen consists in creating such opportunities. By my position, I incite the other to attack. Before they have even thought of it, I give them the desire to do it.

This way of giving the partner the desire to make a movement almost amounts to making the movement oneself? The encompassing gesture that incites the other to attack places us in a position of attack?

That’s it, yes. It is the most developed point of go-no-sen. It is the form of sen-no-sen.

Is that not strategy?

It is incitement, it is not strategy. Strategy is something prepared, whereas incitement can take any form, at any moment. In the instant, you see the other’s position and you incite them to do something.

It is not premeditated?

It is not premeditated. It is an opportunity. Judo is spontaneous, it comes directly from the mind, the heart, and the body.

Nothing to do with a principle of action-reaction?

No, nothing to do with it. It is not a gesture to provoke a reaction, it is an attitude that creates a situation. A situation where it is possible to attack. Now I go a little further in work and teaching, when I create an opportunity, I create it in the direction of the action.

Instead of action-reaction, it is all-action?

It is all-action in the direction.

What is striking in go-no-sen is that the status of Tori and Uke is more mobile, freer than in kata. In go-no-sen one often wants the one designated as Uke to carry their attack through fully first, and only afterwards to launch it again so that Tori can take it.

Yes, one can work go-no-sen like that. When Uke does the throw first, it is to avoid making a mistake, it is so that their action is sincere, that it is true. But it does not go as far as an exchange of roles. One does not do that so that Tori becomes Uke.

Did you introduce changes in go-no-sen?

Go-no-sen is more open than a kata. One can modify things in it, one can replace one counter with another if one sees the opportunity. I modified a few movements because I considered that there was opposition in certain sequences. I worked to remove that opposition.

Let us move on to kime-no-kata…

Kime-no-kata is a jujutsu kata. Kano insisted on keeping it for judo. This kata has a theme, two samurai meet in one of their houses. They are kneeling, talking, and suddenly there is a disagreement. Uke attacks Tori, first kneeling, then standing because he has gone to fetch his weapons. He attacks again and again, and each time he is beaten, Tori accepts his attacks. He controls Uke so as not to injure him, so as not to kill him. He threatens to break an arm, to throw, or to strangle. But the threat is not carried out.

What does this jujutsu kata bring to judo?

If one is determined to find, it brings, like all kata, the understanding of all principles. Tori must particularly be master of himself and of Uke, always. That comes from decision. The decision to control so as not to injure and not to kill. It is important. One must not let oneself be distracted by the spectacular appearance of the jujutsu found in kime-no-kata, punches, joint locks, weapons, daggers, swords. One must use these elements to develop vigilance and encompassing even more. In a punch or a sword cut there is too much power, one is not strong enough to stop it, one’s arm gets broken. So one is obliged to encompass. With kime-no-kata it is necessary to develop non-opposition through encompassing.

We also find the punch in nage-no-kata…

And one is tempted to make the same mistake, tempted to stop the punch before doing ippon-seoi-nage. Whereas it is impossible to stop it, one must encompass it. Jujutsu makes one understand that. But the day I understood an essential element of kime-no-kata, it was not on a tatami. It was at a party in Kamakura…

In Japan?

It was during my first stay in Japan, in Kamakura, near Tokyo. It was a trip I had organised for the Collège des Ceintures Noires. We were with Mr Michigami. A great party had been given to welcome us. In a large square there were the women of Kamakura and music. People were dancing. I did not want to dance, I was preoccupied with organising the trip, but Michigami came to see me and declared that it was necessary for me to dance. I refused, I did not want to. And then I learned something, he grabbed me by the arm and forced me to go to the middle of the dance floor. He had never done that on the mat. It was the movement one does in kime-no-kata. There, I understood how one can bring someone to do something. I danced to please Michigami.

What did he do?

The control he had was perfect.

And it really was a movement from kime-no-kata?

Yes, exactly. It is curious. What made me reflect is that he had never otherwise insisted on that movement in kata work. It took that opportunity for me to understand it. I learned something, something effective that I have not forgotten.

Let us take up ju-no-kata.

Ju-no-kata was originally made to educate the women of the Kodokan in a somewhat less harsh way.

Kano also intended it for the education of the people?

It is the kata of suppleness, but it is not easy to see where suppleness is in this kata. If I do not tell you where it is, you will not find it. One must know.

Among the kata, are you particularly fond of koshiki-no-kata?

Koshiki-no-kata is the ancient kata. It comes from old jujutsu. It is surely the most complete kata, the one that contains the most elements. It is the most important. It is also the most difficult. Mr Kano, like Mr Ueshiba, the founder of aikido, had taken it for himself, for his personal study. It has also been used by certain karate schools.

Did everyone work it?

Yes, and it is an extraordinary element of work when one respects it.

With whom did you learn it?

Mr Michigami taught me koshiki-no-kata. I had already been working it with a friend for three or four years when Michigami asked me to present it publicly. Koshiki-no-kata had never yet been presented in France, it was to be the first time. For six months we worked intensively under Michigami’s direction. The week immediately preceding the presentation, we were every morning at the Collège des Ceintures Noires, sometimes for six hours in a row. It happened that we would take five hundred or a thousand falls per day. Then we presented koshiki-no-kata at the Collège. There is a film of that presentation.

From there, you understood what koshiki-no-kata was?

To say understood is a lot, but I had progressed well. To arrive at understanding koshiki-no-kata took me several years, perhaps ten or twelve years.

What should one begin with in order to study it?

As with all kata, in order to master it entirely, one must first manage to master the first movements. The first movements contain all the elements. Only afterwards, when one masters the first movements, can one go and learn further. Otherwise one wants to learn everything, and one learns by heart. One thinks one knows koshiki-no-kata but one knows only gestures. And gestures are nothing. The day you master perfectly the first two movements of koshiki-no-kata, the rest is easy, because you have had the sensation of the attitude to have and the control of your body in space.

Is there a privileged moment in the development of a judoka to approach koshiki-no-kata?

No, there is not a time for such-and-such a kata and a time for another. It is possible to work koshiki-no-kata at any moment. But one cannot start working it without precise data and someone to guide you. One cannot begin koshiki-no-kata alone, because it is a very difficult kata. One cannot do it without someone who has sufficient knowledge and experience in judo.

What is most important for its study?

The first thing in koshiki-no-kata is physical and mental attitude. That is the most important. And after, only after, the mobility of the body, the control of the body, etc.

When one sees koshiki-no-kata, one sees movements that give the impression of being the result of a work of simplification.

They are more refined, but not more simplified. It is a deep education one demands of oneself. It is the obligation to master one’s body perfectly. It is very strict, there is a very small space.

The simulation of armour, the sensation of heaviness and slowness, is that what allows one to reduce the work?

Yes, it avoids making large-amplitude gestures, it obliges one to remain more precise in one’s actions.

In essence, one could practise all judo in this way, very slowly and very soberly?

Yes, one could. As I said, koshiki-no-kata is the one that contains the most elements of judo. That is why it is the slowest.

That is what one observes in the teaching you give, it is extreme sobriety…

Yes.

Very, very sober, austere even…

Yes, but you understand, it is about saving one’s energy, the minimum expenditure for maximum effectiveness. If it is sober, it is right away, one tires much less, one does not waste energy.

Then there is itsutsu-no-kata?

Of the history of itsutsu-no-kata I know only what Mr Hirano said several times in fragments. It is the last kata Mr Kano designed. It is translated as “the kata of five”, without specifying of what. There are five movements in this kata. People have wanted to interpret it and say that it is the kata of the five principles of the Universe. Kano would have begun this kata to illustrate them, and he would have died before having the time to finish.

So it would have remained unfinished?

It is possible, but it is not certain. Thirty or forty years ago, Kodokan experts tried to complete Kano’s kata. It is true that this kata seems a bit empty.

In what way is it empty?

I do not really see where it is trying to go, I do not see what it is exactly trying to illustrate. But I am trying to find.

In the end, the Kodokan additions were not kept?

No. Mr Hirano himself also made a proposal of an addition for itsutsu-no-kata. He proposed, as an addition, his own kata, nanatsu-no-kata. It is indeed a very interesting kata, but the relationship it has with itsutsu-no-kata does not seem obvious to me.

Was Hirano’s proposal adopted by the Kodokan?

He never received an answer. Like Mr Kawaishi, like other Japanese, Mr Hirano was disliked by the Kodokan. He had that reputation of an adventurer.

How would you define nanatsu-no-kata?

It is demonstrative, rather spectacular. I did not have the time to work it much, because Hirano died. We worked it together, but I did not have the time to deepen it.

Is it possible to consider kata as a place of creation?

It should be.

Do you think the kata as you teach them are the same as those Jigoro Kano designed?

I think it is the same state of mind. There are variants of appearance, variants of gestures, perhaps of cadence. But it is the same idea. Kawaishi also taught us kata according to his conceptions. There was a personal part in his teaching.

Did Kano write all the details of the kata?

He did not note all the elements. Logic must guide us. It is the logic of Kano’s work, the logic of the form of judo he created. Many things were not written or taught. I tried, not only I, many other people did it, to reconstruct the why of things. I refused to tell myself, “It is like that because it is like that.” No, it is like that, but there is a reason. The mistake is to cling to details that have no importance. It is true that I am sometimes demanding about hand positions or steps, but it is not without reason.

To determine how to practise them, do you do a work of understanding the internal logic of kata?

Not only of kata, it is work that must be done for judo as a whole.